Layers don't be synchronize withe the same cue


In my project I use tow projectors and I project the same image in the same time in this tow projector which are superposed (to have more luminosity..)

So, do that I simply duplicate layer and move one in the first projector and the other layer to the seconde one in the second projector. But some time happen, when the cue come, they don't start in the same time and so I have and my tow images are completely unsynchronized (about 0.5seconde). And into a sceen of 9,6m / 5m it's a big problem in live!

any idea why it's happening, Or other idea how to project the same thinks in tow different output without using mad mapper, and I need to map differently this tow projectors so I can simply spleet one output...



  • Hello @peppinoline,

    Be sure you click on the "Optimize" button on the top-left corner, and check that your codecs are ok for realtime.
    Then check that your drive is fast enough to playback all your movies at the same time.

    If your cuepoint is in the middle of a movie, this is not a good practice for the reasons explanined in this thread. It's better to split your movie at your cuepoint (despite we're working at a better solution).

    Lastly, a good practice to use the same content at two different position, is to use a "copy layer" : see this tutorial.

    Best. Philippe
  • Ok, when I use copy layer and not duplicate it's working perfectly! 

    Thanks a lot

  • But my effect are not duplicated too?
  • So know I have an other problem....

    Every thinks are optimize in Millumin. I work with an macbook pro retina 10.9.5 Proc 2.5GHz i7, 16Go memory, NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M 1024 Mo.... Every movies are in fullHD.

    So when I use copy layer I have some ''glitch'', like flash in the layer duplicated. And if I use mad mapper I have the same problem. But When I use duplicate layer in Millumin I have no glitch but sometime my cue are not synchronize....

    2 weeks of research to discover that, and know I'm sure it's not my Video projectors, not my extenders or câbles. The problem is in my computer. when I ask to my computer to read the same ''output'' like syphon or the same layer in Millumin, more than one time, I have glitch, flash.... 

    Any Idea?

    Thanks a lot!
  • Hello

    You can use 2 instances of millumin.

    instance 1 : create your show just for one screen and active syphon output !!!

    instance 2 : use syphon of the first instance and create a copy layer. So you can map like you want !!!

    If the first instance doesn't work, the problem come from the files. A SSD is better if you have a lot of files in same time

  • Hello @peppinoline,

    If you have the same problem on 2 different computers, your graphic card may have a problem.
    You should test your project on another computer, to see if the problem is related specifically to your machine. Run a test with simple "copy layers" (such as explained in this tutorial, but without After Effects).

    Best. Philippe
  • Ok, it was my next step, I'll keep you in touch. Thanks Philippe
  • i have a similar problem:
    i created a video file with a running timecode (50fps) and set up a millumin show with 50fps base.
    i created four standard layers, put the "timecode video" in every layer, scaled the four layers into four quadrants and triggered the play button. i watched the output on one single monitor and shot a movie with a camera (50fps). After this i loaded the video into QT Player and play backed frame by frame. and there is a slight drift between those four clips (+-1frame). 
    This can get a big Problem, if you have a soft/hard edge and a sliced content you want to put next to each other you will have sync problems between the both projectors…
    any suggestions?

  • Hello @julian,

    Do you use "copy layers" ? It's the best way to keep all your content synchronized amon several layers.
    Please watch this tutorial for more information.

    Best. Philippe
  • Hello Philippe,

    yes it is an option to copy layer the same content. But if i two video files have to be played back in sync what to do then? 
  • Hello @julian,

    First of all, you cannot create a "millumin show with 50fps base" : in fact Millumin is synchronized to vertical refresh rate of your monitors (typically 50hz or 60hz).
    Also, movie rate can be different from monitor refresh rate. For example, movies at 50hz VS monitors at 60hz : in that case, some a +- 1 frame difference could occur. But it's very rare, as this kind of conversion won't be necessary for movies at 25 or 30hz (the monitors is fast enough, 50 or 60hz, to playback all frames).
    Lastly, Millumin uses Apple libraries to playback movies : it's more efficient to be in 64-bits mode, so Millumin can use AVFoundation libraries. If you have OSX 10.8, you can activate 64-bits mode in the Preferences (if you don't have this option, be sure to update Millumin to the latest version, which is always recommanded).

    Let us know the progress.
    Best. Philippe
  • Hello Philippe,

    all my outputs are EDID managed to 50Hz via 8x8 DVI Matrix (Extron SMX200 or Lightware). Millumin and/or GFX Card has to output 50Hz (same 50fps-base like my tc-testfile). The monitor is able to show 50Hz natively.
    64Bit is acitvated, Antialiasing 8.better, OSX 10.9.5, newMacPro 6Core, D700…

    "Millumin Show 50fps": i mean the "global framerate" setting in the millumin menu.

    So afaik i´m doing everything right from video-engeenering POV.

    A solution to have synced videofiles would be to paste them in final cut into one single file and distribute them with millumin to the projectors.
    But in real world i receive a single file for each projector. doing soft edge with 3 projectors and having +-1 frame between them: my customer kills me -> need to use watchout/pandoras box/wings, they are frame-sync (watch out e.g. use S400 sync card from ATI or genlock).

    anyway, millumin is great and i want to help making it even better :)

  • Hi Julian

    I have run multiple clips (up to 6 at a time) side by side and have never noticed loss of sync between them. I will do the same frame check test as your TC test on my 8 core with D700s and report back. What codec do you use? I always use I-frame only codecs like Photo-JPEG or ProRes when running sync clips. I also make sure my clip frame rate is the same (or division of) the display refresh rate: i.e 25fps on 50Hz and 30fps on 60Hz.


  • Hey Tom,

    ProRes422, 1080p50.
    1080p25 is to shacky for what i do, i need smooth movements.
    As is already said: the whole system is EDID managed 50Hz/50p and this i what i recommend for every show.
    -> if you accidentally turn of your operator/gui monitor the mac will loose the monitor setup and this kills the show, spectators will see the millumin GUI….
  • Hello @julian,

    Millumin is software only. We do not sell hardware+software such as Watchout or Pandora Box.
    "Hardware framed-locked" graphic card are very specific, and only a few models are available(mainly NVidia Quadro and ATI S400). Unfortenatly not the ones for Mac (except FirePro I think, but such genlock is not available on OSX as far as I know).
    We'll try to reproduce your issue.

    Best. Philippe
  • edited March 2015

    I did a test with 2 x Photo-JPEG timecode clips (1080/50p) output to two HDMI displays (at 1080/50hz) and with 3rd monitor for control (also 50hz). I also recorded 1-2 frame sync difference drifting in and out and for anywhere between 4 to 47 frames, then would be in sync again for anywhere between 10 to 100+ frames. Mostly just 1 frame loss with the occasional 2 frame loss. I tried to ascertain the cause by switching clips around, Mullumin mulit-screen output assignments and displays connections around. However, the results where contradictory so I need to test further. During each test the same clip or display would always be behind, but in different configurations I would get mixed results.

    I also checked the clip playback in the Quicktime 7 player and the inspector shows the playback frame rate drifting between 48.8fps and 51fps.

    I have never noticed this before (even with stereoscopic 3D set up), but I only just updated my system to Yosemite last week. Also, I only have access to 50hz HDMI displays at the moment and I avoid HDMI usualy.

    Will do another check and report back.


  • Hey Tom, Hey Philippe,
    Thx for investigations.
    @tom: have you tried to scale and position both clips on only one of your displays and then film the screen with your camera? Because even the same type of displays can produce frame delays.
    And could you try to use 720p50 "time code test file" instead of 1080p50? If QuickTime does not play your clips at stable 50fps it seems that your machine is not strong enough, and if this is the case Millumin will have the same problem. With the Mac Pro I can play easily 8 ProRes 1080p50 with stable fps.
    @philippe: to compare Millumin with watch out/pandoras box is not fair, as you already said. And there is no need for me to sync machines at this moment. I just want to have 5 (6) frame synced outputs out of one nMac Pro.

    For future Millumin v2 with smpte feature it would be great to have frame locked playback with more than one machine and perhaps there is an option that Millumin can double check the playback position and compare the position of the "play heads" every frame and then readjust/respeed the different machines to guarantee the sync.
  • Hi Julian

    I am testing on 2013 MacPro 8 core with D700 so system performance is not the issue. In usual scenario I can playback up to 20 ProRes HD clips without noticeable frame drops. Testing frame accurate sync is another ball game altogether. But I also think Yosemite OS has some performance issues.


  • Hey Tom,
    Ok we use the same system, good base for testing :)
    I'm still on 10.9.5.
    Did you watched those two tv clips next to each other on one screen?
  • edited March 2015

    I did some more thorough testing:

    I swapped out my HDMI projectors for some HDMI LCD monitors that I have benchmarked for delay. I don't have ability to test accurate sub frame delay but these monitors have tested as minimum delay as any monitor at any price I have tested and they are dead match. I also tested on some old Panasonic 5500 1024x768 projectors I had lying around with same results below. Also, I shot the side by side displays with DSLR at 1/1000th to make sure shutter delay is not impacting the results. This is much more accurate than shooting at 50/60fps with a video camera. Anyway....

    If I set up all outputs at same refresh rate (Including control monitor) and displays at same resolution, then do a restart, then launch Millumin: I get no loss of sync. With either a 50Hz or 60Hz set up.

    However, if I set just the control monitor at a different refresh then I get loss of sync. If I change all the refresh rates in Display Preferences and don't restart the Mac, I get loss of sync. If I just restart Millumin after a Display preference change I still get loss of sync.

    Anyway, I am trashing Yosemite and going back to Mavericks (only upgraded for 64bit HAP). I haven't had so many problems with multiple displays (amongst other things) since Thunderbolt connections first came out. It is like rolling dice as to which display will be the desktop or even which displays will be recognised at all. The default and unchangable system setting that every time a new EDID is picked all connected displays must go into mirror mode is a nightmare.

    Once I revert to Mavericks I will retest to see if I get any different results.


  • Hi everyone,
    Intersting test.

    Did you try switchrezX ? Sometime it's very useful to fix and lock resolution. And you can save it and automatically load it when restart system.
    Also, to manage 6 output from a MacPro, i've use 2 matrox triplehead DP, in this way i have only 3 output to manage (2 matrox + control display). The main trick is to plug usb alimentation not on the mac but on a hub or a sector plug to avoid matrox utility to makes change when restarting.

    Maybe it can helps !

  • Hi Ben,
    I tried SwitchResX for smaller setups without a Matrix.
    But EDID management with a DVI cross point is much easier. Especially if your Mac forgets which screen is display 1,2,3,4,5,6 you route the ins and outs via the cross point instead of playing the screen assignment quiz in Millumin ;)
    Did you do that TC video file test?
    Anyone interested in my TC ProRes file?
  • Hi Julian,
    Good to know for EDID management !

    I didnt run TC video file test, if you have some, please send !

  • Hi

    I checked the two clips on one output when I was testing and playback was in sync. However, I investigated further and discovered that if the clips are out of sync on the display monitors they also appear out of sync in the workspace, for what that is worth.

    Given that a restart seems to be needed to get sync across multiple displays leads me to believe it is OS and/or GPU related. I will do the same test with 10.9.

    For EDID management I usually use emulators on every output and create custom names for each one e.g. Screen_Right, Upstage_Set etc. Makes it very easy to re-assign outputs if needed rather than dealing with the system appended [device name] (1),  [device name] (2) when using same projectors/monitors. Also makes it easier for others to understand whats what if I get hit by a bus! But even still, I've had issues with the Mac Pro randomly not recognising displays that are connected at start up. Never had that issue before I installed 10.10.

    I'm gun shy of SwitchRes...nearly killed my PowerBook (a long time ago) fiddling too much!!  I also prefer to manage EDID in hardware if possible.


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